Tuesday, November 8, 2011

In Defense of the Duggars (updated)

A note from stark. raving. mad. mommy.:

Hi there!  Just a friendly reminder that if you leave comments that are hateful to one another, I will delete that shizz.  Also, perhaps some people should consider trying decaf.

While I welcome feedback on my writing, suggestions for more information, or thoughtful opinions, I simply cannot stomach online bullying.  If you are reading this, you are old enough to know better.

If you don't share my views on the Duggars, that's totally cool.  I get it.  My very good friend (who is far more well-read than me) at Mom-In-A-Million wrote a post that I love called "I Don't Admire The Duggars."  I agree with 99% of what she's saying.  Except I still like to watch the show.

I've temporarily enabled comment moderation until this dies down.  Thanks for your patience.

xoxo,
SRMM

* * * * * *

We have four kids, and that's plenty for us. We're stopping there. We live in a mostly Catholic town where no one bats an eyelash at four kids. Most of the people who grew up here in Vatican Hill, Pennsylvania have at least five siblings.

It's all over the news that Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are expecting their 20th child.  I care about this in the sense that it's fascinating, in the way reading the Guinness Book of World Records is fascinating.  I mean, how many children can one woman give birth to before her uterus goes on strike?

Even if they didn't have their own reality show, a woman being pregnant with her 20th child is interesting fodder for a slow news day.  With a reality show, it goes even more viral.

The thing is, I don't care.  If Michelle Duggar wants to treat her vag like a clown car, that's her business.  It's not like they've asked me to babysit their trillion kids.  It seems that they don't take a dime in state or federal support.  Jim Bob and Michelle seem like loving, dedicated parents. Their kids seem pretty much normal and happy, despite growing up in what is essentially a small corporation.  In fact, in many ways they seem better-adjusted than my own kids.

Plus, Michelle has that awesome laundry soap recipe that I lurve.

I'm not a huge fan of putting kids on television, because they're not old enough to give consent.  It's the same reason I don't use my kids' names on my blog, or use their photos.  It's not fair to them.  But the Duggars are a far cry from being the Gosselins.  The're not even as nutty as the Browns from Sister Wives. Not that I care what the heck the Browns do in their bedrooms, but they're living a life that is actually illegal (whether it should be or not), and parading their kids around while doing it. It's got to be kind of awkward for those kids at school, no?

In fact, as reality show parents go, the Duggars are pretty freaking awesome.

Remember this game?



Let's play, shall we? First, the moms:

Sure, at first glance you think it's Kate Gosselin who's "doing her own thing," with the crazy eyes and Madonna-scary biceps.  But let me ask you this: if you had to ask any of these moms to watch your kids, who would you ask?  I bet it's Michelle Duggar, who seems to be inflicting the least amount of weirdness on her kids.

Now, the dads:

Not sure? Here's a hint: which one is not wearing an Ed Hardy or Ed Hardy knockoff?  Also, which one is actually a guy you'd invite to have dinner with your family?

I don't share the Duggars' religious views. I also don't share their desire to populate the earth with as many mini-me's as possible. But I do respect their right to knock themselves out trying.

Yes, Michelle Duggar's pregnancy is high-risk. So were all three of my pregnancies: my first (twins, and then pre-eclampsia), my second (VBAC), and my third and last (pre-eclampsia, emergency c-section). Michelle says she is exercising, eating right and napping daily to keep her strength up and honestly the fact that a mom of 19 is able to find time to nap shows me that she has got her act together.  (That and she's got half a dozen built-in babysitters, but whatevs.)

Lots of other risks go up with age and having had so many pregnancies.  One doctor told me to make sure I took a calcium supplement because my "serial pregnancies" can deplete the minerals from your bones.  Michelle is also at higher risk to have a baby with special needs.  That seems to be a chance the Duggars are willing to take, and frankly I think they'd do a bang-up job of raising a special needs child.

Okay, so maybe I do care.  I care exactly enough to wish Michelle Duggar a happy and healthy pregnancy.

Best wishes, and thanks for the laundry soap recipe, Michelle.

55 comments:

  1. Amen. I feel the same way... it's her business. Her and Jim Bob seem to be doing a decent job raising them and you can tell that they have good values so more power to them.

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  2. I am right with you on this one. It is absolutely none of my business how many children the Duggar's chose to have. They certainly seem capable, loving parents who care for and support their large family. It is sad to see so many people bashing them over a personal choice.

    Would I want 20 kids? Not on your life but that is my choice. They have chosen to have a large family and they are caring for their family. More power to them.

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  3. I think they are amazing parents and are doing a damn good job considering what other people do.

    BUT I think she's nuts for having more kids!!! Coming from a parent that has lost her SECOND child, I think it's a tad bit selfish for her to keep procreating. And considering this is her 20th child and she's in her fortys (I may be wrong); it's a recipe for a high risk pregnancy with her chances of having a special needs kid going through the roof.
    I love the Duggars; I think they are great for all they do, I just do not agree with her decision to have more kids. It's too risky for the child.
    *disclaimer* I am worried she will lose this child, there is NOTHING wrong with a special needs kid. They are adorable and sweet and amazing. I am NOT saying that if she had a special needs kids, that it would be awful. I'm saying with all the factors, that I am worried this child won't live.

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  4. GREAT post. The Duggars believe that God's will alone determines the size of their family. They are simply exercising the same religious freedom we all enjoy. Michelle's practical kid raising tips are worth hearing out. And her laundry soap recipe is the BEST!

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  5. Agreed. It's one thing to have more kids when you can't handle the ones you already have but they seem to be doing a bang up job and will probably do well with one more. My own mother had her last (#8) at 46 while I was in college. Was it weird for me? A little. But both my Mom and my sister were fine and are as "normal" as you'd expect from a low risk pregnancy. That baby will arrive in a family that has a lot of love to pass around and will benefit from it.

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  6. They are taking care of their family better than SO many people with one or two or three. I can't imagine the patience she has!

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  7. Every time I see that show I think to myself "why can't I be that calm and quiet with my TWO kids?" Then I remember that I grew up in a house where you had to be loud to be heard and I give myself a break.

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  8. I agree with your post and I LOVE the Duggars. I think they are an amazing family who are raising their children with strong morals and values. However, one month after Michelle gave birth to baby Josie, I gave birth to my second child at 25 weeks gestation. He weighed 1 lb 2 ounces and was in the NICU for 4.5 months. He is doing incredibly well today. That being said, I almost lost my life as did my baby and my husband said he loved me too much for us to go through that again and I respect him for that. I just think they should count their blessings and literally, they have many including their miracle baby Josie. I pray they have a healthy, full term pregnancy but at the same time, I think it is slightly selfish of them to potentially put themselves in life threatening situation again!

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  9. I agree with you, and actually only have one thought-
    Shouldn't they be out of "J" names by now?

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  10. I agree with you. Just as no one should be told that they HAVE to have a child, no one should be told that they SHOULDN'T either. As you stated, their kids seem happy and well adjusted, their home is clean, the family eats a much more balanced diet than most Americans do AND they are self-sufficient, law-abiding people who ask for nothing to support the family that they have.

    One of the comments stated that they shouldn't have anymore children because it is too risky for the child in that they could lose the child or that the child won't live.

    I was young (late 20's) and had no children yet I lost 2 children in a row before being able and blessed to have our happy and healthy son. So, there are no guarantees for any pregnancy regardless of whether you have had no children, or in the Dugger's case, nineteen.

    I agree with you that if any family is ready to deal with a special needs or ill child, it would be the Duggers. But, the only issue they have had with any of the pregnancies was this last one and although she was a preemie and may have some lingering medical issues, she seems to be thriving, happy and the family is doing well with meeting her needs.

    We don't support this family financially, the children aren't being abused or neglected and they are all happy and healthy.

    Who are we to say they shouldn't have anymore?

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  11. I grew up in that Quiverfull/Patriarchal mentality, so I know that while their kids seem happy on TV they are far from well-adjusted. I agree that the Duggars have their religious freedom, but it is hard sometimes to see them take that to the extreme and endanger her life and a baby's life after her last scary pregnancy. It's hard when you know the back story, knowing that the reason those kids are so well-behaved is because they follow prominant preachers like Michael Pearl and Bill Gothard and their kids are too afraid of their parents to act up or think differently, and how they farm out the care for the younger children onto their older children, as well as how they hold themselves up as an example to a fundamentalist world who idolizes them. I've been there, it sucked, and it was hard to break out of. I worry about those kids, and I would probably break out in hives if I had Jim-bob and Michelle over, just how she looks at her husband with that happy-glazed look would be enough to remind me of my own past as a submissive stay-at-home daughter. I wouldn't want my kids watched over there, they would just be shuffled around in a mass group of children, it would be like leaving them 24/7 in an adult-oriented childcare center where they can switch your kid if they aren't happy or quiet enough.

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  12. amen! i love the duggars and i wish i had a quarter of their patience (and i only have 2 kids lol) they have the most loving family i have ever seen and the most respectful kids on the face of the earth. i give them HUGE props and wish them the best of luck with the new baby ♥

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  13. 2 financially-responsible adult Duggars + 20 polite, helpful, non-sullen children > 1 clueless, system-sucking Jersey Shore addict + 1 jobless, pants-draggin' Baby Daddy + 1 child who grows up in a broken environment.

    There. I said it.

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  14. I think you care. I think you care a LOT. But I refuse to do an internet search about this supposed 20th child, because I do NOT care.

    *does internet search*

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  15. Blanket training. Look it up. I'd probably leave my kids with Meri from the Brown family if I had to. Nobody's going to blanket train *my* baby.

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  16. From Mindy - whose never able to sign in . . . but I'm not an anonymous shit talker and scared chicken - Although I didn't grow up in the movement, I did grow up in one similar, and was exposed to it several times.

    I completely agree with Melissa@Permission to Live.

    And no, I wouldn't want Jim Bob coming over for dinner. Patriarchal men aren't comfortable in my home, or around me, and I have to sit on my hands to keep from punching them in the mouth.

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  17. Mindy again -

    And. If you are interested in enlightening yourself just a tiny bit? Check out www.nolongerquivering.com

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  18. Well Said!! I LOVE the Duggars! She's one mom that's got it together:-) If I could have more and run it like she does I would!

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  19. I am totally jealous. I can't get pregnant and would love to have a large family. I really really wish my hubby and I could have a ton of kids. So to the Duggars....Rock on with your bad selves!

    RJ

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  20. Tea said...

    I agree with you, and actually only have one thought-
    Shouldn't they be out of "J" names by now?


    THANK YOU!!! That's all I thought. That and may the Lord bless her with a healthy and SAFE pregnancy for both her and the one she carries.

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  21. am I envious sense I can't even have ONE? YES. Do I think anyone else should decide how many the family wants to have? NO. Do I think the kids are being abused? No. I know for a fact that Arkansas DFS has kept an eye on the family for a while, and have found no problems. If there was, you think the TV station would rather cover it up or have a huge special? "Dugger kids in foster care!!" probably would get a bigger audience. Why do you think the other train wrecks of "family" shows are so popular?

    Of course the same people who say they should be prevented from having more also say I am a foster parent just for the money, and that I'm "stealing a kid from their rightfull parent" um my foster son's mother skipped town a month after DFS was called for neglect. he has no siblings. His monthly checks get put in a special savings account that hopefully will build for his college.

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  22. Wow, I just lost a lot of respect for you. Please read over at NoLongerQuivering and FreeJinger for some background on this subject before embracing patriarchial religious nutcases who would GLADLY take away your freedoms even as you so kindly reaffirm theirs.

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  23. I personally feel lucky with one child and have a hard time imagining more, especially 19. I would lose it for sure:) But if they can care and provide for 20 kids in a loving safe home then good for them. We are blessed to have choices like that.
    I also wish I had a hundredth of her patience. I know reality tv isn't reality, but it seems pretty amazing.

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  24. Amen, sister! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's why they pay you the big bucks!

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  25. Hey folks, just wanted to let you know that I've taken your words to heart and will check out the book No Longer Quivering. That being said, I still strive for even a tenth of Michelle Duggar's patience.

    I live near several Amish communities and feel the same way about them. I wouldn't choose that life, but I respect it. Even if I don't share the Duggars' religious or political viewpoints (or those of the Amish, for example), I still find things to learn from them.

    xoxo, SRMM

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  26. I am with Melissa (at 2:28 pm). This Duggar family unit is oppressive and no way would I want Jim Bob in my house. You could argue that their system "works," but no thanks. The Duggars bring to mind Rusty and Andrea Yates. Devastating. Not saying the two families are the same, just that oppressive fundamentalist religions are fear/control-based and can go way wrong. Sorry! No tolerance from me for the Taliban, no tolerance for Woroniecki, Michael Pearl followers, etc. Abuse is abuse (of women, of children--men are in control in all these cases), even under the tent of "faith."

    On the other hand, I don't have such a problem with the Browns. I think Kody is only married to one wife and the others are just other women he thinks of as his wives. Technically speaking, I believe they are just his extra girlfriends. The stupid thing there is that I assume the women all collect welfare (although the TLC money may have taken care of that for now) since they don't work, aren't married, and have all those kids. If they each had their own husband (or were true single moms), they'd be making their own way and probably having a better life. Kody seems unhinged to me to some degree, although not in a dangerous way. Possibly gay and fighting it. Not sure. It's come up on Sister Wives that some of the kids want to leave the faith/lifestyle. Kody and his "wives" are open to that and have no interest (it seems) in forcing their kids to blindly, strictly follow their religion. I highly doubt that's the situation over at the Duggar house.

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  27. Yes, there are always things we can learn from those who are different from ourselves, and the Duggars have several things to offer me. But blanket training and "obedience" to a man won't be among MY take-aways.

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  28. Not a comment on today's post. SRMM, I have recently learned about a preschooler sized soft carrier. Here's the info on it:
    preschool 20"h x 20" w- ages 3-5 yrs (starting at 35 lbs/38" tall) This is truly the largest child carrier made. Great for big kids and kids with special needs who still want to be carried through the preschool years.

    Is that something you could use for Little Dude? I'd be willing to work with your readers to get donations and/or buy it myself if it's something you could use.

    More info here: http://www.kindercarry.com/

    Best,
    Ellen

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  29. No Longer Quivering and Free Jinger are hardly a reliable resource. LOL I get so sick of the attempt to demonize people like the Duggars out of hatred for their religious beliefs. You know it's actually possible for people to hold conservative religious beliefs and not be raving lunatics secretly beating their children and the wife being abused. I have read at No Longer Quivering and Free Jinger extensively for years and while it's an amusing site and I do actually enjoy reading there I'd still consider it about as reliable as a site where people leave pagan families, convert to Christianity and tell everyone their family was actually practicing infant sacrifice and worshiping Satan. There are all kinds of lunatic fringe. They might be amusing to read if you enjoy a good train wreck but it's laughable to take them seriously and actually consider it a resource to enlighten someone on the subject matter they hate and vilify. "Oh, you need to know more about the Democratic party? Check out Dr Laura Schlessinger and Rush Limbaugh!"

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    Replies
    1. LOL - exactly what I was thinking! Well said.

      Delete
  30. All I see is a bunch of brainwashed kids and creepy parents, (probably also brainwashed early on). Also, just cause they look happy on TV doesn't mean a thing. They make me cringe.

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  31. I LOVE the Duggars! I cried when I stopped having babies, and would have more if my body would let me. I am more concerned about the hate-speech and the religious racism coming out of people, that I ever have been about the Duggar family. Holy Cow!
    Here's to wishing Michelle and happy and healthy pregnancy and nothing but the best for the family! Woot-woo!

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  32. Personally, I think this family is selfish. Do you really think that these two, Michelle and Jim Bob have time physically and emotionally for all 19 kids? In their recent interview about "giving back" Michelle's daughter was holding Josie, not her! Probably the main caretaker of this child. How many of these kids are 'mothering or mothered' Michelle and Jim Bob's kids? Of course Michelle has time to exercise, take naps etc. We would too if we had 16 other people in the house to take care of our kids for us. I have no issue with how many a person should have, but as a parent we need to have time for all of our kids and it is hard with two or three, impossible with 20. Those kids are missing out on being a kid. I don't think they are well rounded and happy at all. I believe it is all for show, they thrive on attention....and the money is good.

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  33. It's one thing to disagree, its another to act like an "anonymous" a**hole. It's really easy to just read a different blog. Sorry you had to put up with that mommy!

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  34. ladies, I lived similar. And there is NOTHING WRONG with teaching your kids how to care for others and be responsible. Did I get to play video games all day at 16 with not a care in the world? NO. And I am ALSO not a person who's sat around expecting things to be handed to me, either- like so many of the population in America today. We are SUCH a selfish society. Everyone complains about everything going downhill and being so awful. Why? Bc all we think about is ourselves and expect everything to be handed to us on a silver platter. Do not even PRETEND to say it's not like that. These kids are taught to work. NOT. A. BAD. THING. I took care of my siblings. And now I know how to be a decent Mom. Already. How can ya'll watch them swinging from rope swings and playing 4 square and running around the house on roller blades and say they didn't have a childhood? They play and they have time to help out bc they're not watching Finneas and Ferb for 3 hours every day. They are SO not missing out on childhood. They are having a REAL one. Maybe if more of us were taught to put others first, we wouldn't be in such a mess and so hateful to each other.

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  35. Sorry, but I can't stomach phrases like "religious racism." That's just ridiculous. I'll try to play "nicer," but when you post on subjects you have no background about, it shows. They have a micropremie and a toddler with a speech impediment they do NOTHING about, and have stated this. They don't believe in early intervention or social services- they'd love to take those things away from YOUR kids. They also are linked to religious groups that believe special needs are a sin- they would roundly condemn your family as being fallen from grace. Its really sad you choose to write nice to middling things about people whose missions and actions contradict so much of what else you post about!

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  36. I don't know how you can post anything fair to nice about this family. They let special needs in their own household go untreated and take dangerous trips with micro premie children, and openly write, film, and brag about this. This family you're lukewarm about (but sound pretty happy with!), support political and religious movements that believe your children's special needs are a result of sin, possibly due to you, your husband, or their own original sin, and would gladly rip away the interventions and services your children need and receive.

    PLEASE do more research! This was a heartbreaking post. And the comments- sorry but the caliber is atrocious. "Religious racism?" Really? That's adorable.

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  37. Also, I find it really suspect that you'll delete posts calling people out for inappropriate terminology because they're said meanly, but allow comments that call the survivor's stories on NoLongerQuivering.com inarticulate tripe. Really balanced there. Great example of classic victim shaming and hatred gone unchecked...and you LET it happen with your selective deletions. You should be ashamed.

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  38. I often tell my friend's when they're expecting, "Welcome to Motherhood--the most judgmental sorority on the planet." I love this post a whole bunch. My sister has 8 kids and people always ask her if she knows how it keeps happening. She asks which kid they would pick to send back. It's just hurtful to her. And to her infertile little sister.
    And about the whole kids being on TV thing, my sister's 16 yr old found a casting call for a large family in a suburban area and desperately wants to be on reality TV. His reason? So all the hotties can come flocking. He claim's they'd be like Jersey Shore! My sister laughed and said, "Um, you're not helping your case. At all. Go clean your room."

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  39. Anonymous November 10, 2011 11:14 AM-- You are so RIGHT! Well said.

    As I learned when I went to college, there is something about every family that is potentially reprehensible to someone else who grew up with a different domestic reality.

    It's instructive to keep in mind that before the birth control pill revolution, all families were big, and all older children helped out with the younger ones. As the mortality rate in childbirth was much higher, there were many young women (we'd call them little girls today, I suppose) who were looking after all their siblings and running the house. I fail to see what's so horrible about that. I can't think of a better person to help with my younger kid than his older brother.

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  40. Dear Anonymous,

    This post has obviously hit a nerve for you, and I'm sorry for that. However, I'm not ashamed of what I wrote, or the way I moderate comments.

    Your comment was pretty harsh, and you know it. And it wasn't harsh to me, it was to another commenter. That's why it was deleted.

    That being said, I'm open to your thoughts, and your point about another comment being offensive is well-taken. I'll delete that one as well.

    --SRMM

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  41. I truly think people have way too much time on their hands. While I personally think having twenty kids is insane (four nearly did me in), it's not for me to judge what someone else does, whether they're on TV or next door.

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  42. I haven't posted before, but SRMM and Permission to Live are two of my very favorite blogs, so I can't resist chiming in. I live in a cave on a desert island, and I haven't seen the Duggar's show, so I won't comment on them specifically. (Heard a bit about it- we do get internet in the cave. Whew!))

    For me it boils down to two separate issues- I don't mind the large family aspect. (Yes, I know we just hit 7 billion, but let's focus on helping to prevent unwanted pregnancies rather than going after the ones who want and care for their kids.) What worries me more when I read about the Quiverful movement is the rigid gender roles they place on themselves and their children. Absolutely nothing wrong with Mom being at home and Dad being the breadwinner, but when you teach your daughters that they can ONLY stay home, then you're doing them a large disservice.

    -Teshumai Tewindrow

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  43. Wow... I'm amazed at how judgmental everyone is being... Are the Duggars affecting you? No. Are they wanting your money? No. Would you bite someone else's head off if they criticized your life choices? Yes. Live and let live, and worry about making your own life and your children's lives better.

    I'm not even going to give my opinion on whether I agree or disagree with them - it's none of my business what they choose to do!

    ~ Cindy

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  44. I totally agree that their business is their business. I don't care what they choose to do or how they choose to raise all those kids! I think they are the best parental role models on television in the sense that their children do seem happy and well adjusted, for their financial success and no debt lifestyle (amen!), and the general message of goodwill towards others. The only problem I have is the irresponsibility that having this many children impacts our planet. I know it sounds stupid and far fetched but if they send out this message and more and more individuals get on board with dozens of kids, how quickly will our race's overpopulation of the earth skyrocket. We are already depleting it of all of it's resources and no one is doing anything about it! Now with 20 kids, if each one of their kids has the same amount as they do (and I've see on the show that at least some of them do) they will have 400 grandchildren!! I know that their family does not directly affect the fate of our poor planet but they seem like smart people.. aren't they worried about their grandchildren's children and where how they will live? I know that if there is a god out there, he didn't put us on this earth to destroy it and kill everything in our paths. Furthermore, with the amount of mouths they have to feed, they have no option but to buy the cheapest products from the least environmentally friendly companies. I get it that this what many of us have to do at times and that others are just fine with it period. But we need to be aware of the impact that each one of us has on the future of this place. Not caring about the planet because you won't be here when it meets its demise is selfish. Come on! But i do wish her a healthy pregnancy and child. Who cares what religious beliefs they have. Who cares how they choose to live? Who cares if you enter into a pregnancy knowing it is high risk or that you might have a child with special needs? Would you not have a child because there was a chance you might have to deal with special needs? That is selfish. Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar are probably the least selfish people out there. Just because another person does not directly affect someone else, does not mean that their actions don't ultimately affect your life and the future lives of your children and my children.

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  45. All of those people make me sad. The Duggars, The Browns, The Gosselins, all of them. I feel for their kids, because I don't think ANY of them are growing up with a "normal" childhood. :( My two cents. That being said, I'm not going to tell them how to live.

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  46. Before WWI, my (then) 13 yo grandmother was denied the opportunity to attend high school. Her sister-in-law had died in childbirth. Someone had to care for the new baby and she was assigned that role. For those who are speculating: this was a modest-size, working-class, Irish Catholic family in a big city.

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  47. Bravo and Amen. I'm with you.

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  48. I agree with Anonymous November 11, 2011 11:07 AM

    My concern is for our planet. The Duggars seem to have no regard for the world that they will leave behind for their children and children's children. They must have the biggest carbon footprint in the world! It's not cool.

    This is the first I've heard of blanket training. I'm a dog trainer and all of my dogs and my client's dogs are "blanket" trained except that we call it Place or Base. It's an excellent tool for keeping your dog in one place while you do other things but to do this to a baby? Isn't that what the Pack N Play is for? That's just some weird shit to do to a kid.

    I don't know about the Duggars religion or what they are like as people but based on my own beliefs, we aren't gonna be besties in this lifetime. Probably not the next one either.

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  49. Why would you want to have so many children if you need a television show to support them all? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm all for everyone making their own decisions for what is best for them, but if they can't afford to support so many children without the extreme lengths of a reality show invading their privacy and family life, why do it? There are also so many children out there who have nothing and already exist. I would think if they wanted so many kids and could feasibly do it, why not adopt a few?

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  50. Very concerning overall. Any type of extreme behaviour is really a mental illness. Just take a look at intervention, my strange addiction, my strange obsession, hoarders etc. etc. No joke they are all on TLC too! Takes all kinds to make the world go round, that is for sure. I am just grateful that I can enjoy sex outside of procreation, have respect for 'creating real live people' which is what you're doing everytime you make a baby, and choose to just be myself without being a spectacle. I always watched intervention because the show makes me feel grateful for my life and how few problems I have. I also had a miscarriage and the pain was insurmountable as well as the knowledge of a person dying, not making it into this world. Yes God exists but we are biological beings too, and whether you believe in God or not you still procreate, so I think some responsibility as humans here should come into play.

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  51. The First Six Bowls of Wrath
    …2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image. 3The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died. 4Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. Wendy give me some loving. Stephen Wright Come Alive Church Medford NJ Fur Coat Wife.

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