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| This is not the Square One that Little Dude is back to. Just me. (BAHAHAHAHAHAHA -- I can't really afford organic vodka.) |
And yet, there is some progress. Yesterday Little Dude peed on the potty at school, and that's huge. HUGE. Like throw a party huge.
So the pee department is getting there. It's the poop that's throwing a wrench in Operation Get Into Underwear.
Normally, Little Dude poops standing up, in his Pull-Up. He literally cannot figure out how to do this sitting down on the toilet. I don't know if that's a motor planning problem, a sensory problem, a low-tone core muscle problem, some combination of those three, or something else entirely.
I have been trying to explain to Little Dude how to poop, and it's not working. Yesterday he was sitting on the toilet, frustrated, begging me to explain to him how to poop on the toilet.
The kid really, really wants to do this, and that's not something we've ever had going for us before. I'd really like to make this work.
So far I've tried explaining that in his butt is the hole where the poop comes out. I showed him with my fist how his muscles hold that hole closed until he's ready to let the poop out. I said he needs to relax that muscle, and also use his stomach muscles to push the poop out.
I know. I told you this post was gross. Also, yes, I've tried waiting til I know he's about to poop, and then putting him on the potty, but he kind of freezes up at that point. So it's really about teaching him to relax the right muscles, I think. And I don't want to go the Miralax route because he's totally not constipated. And no, he's not lactose or gluten sensitive or allergic. Yes, we've checked.
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| M&M's. How would one potty-train without them? |
We do have a social story about pooping. He likes that, but it doesn't really tell him how to poop.
So, my explanation of how to poop is insufficient. I made an appointment for him for next month with Urology at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia under the guise of investigating his daytime/nighttime enuresis (wetting), but really I'm hoping their biofeedback machine can just give him some muscle awareness in that whole general region. I'll let you know how that pans out.
In the mean time, how do I explain this? Do I need a flow chart? (Ha ha -- eew.) Are there other words that would make more sense to him? Should I make him do stomach crunches to build up his core muscles? I seriously don't know, and none of the "experts" I've asked know either.
So I'm turning to you, the real experts. Please help me. How do I explain to my son how to poop?
Oh, man. That's rough. I really have no idea. How old is he? I think that makes a difference. I'm about to start potty training my 18-month-old twins. I haven't potty trained anything in, like, 7 years. I hope you figure this out.
ReplyDeleteCould you have him stand on the toilet? Get the pooping on the potty thing down - then slowly lower him. My nephew squats (feet on the toilet but bum low) most of the time and that works for him. You're there to help him not fall off so it may be worth a shot.
ReplyDeleteAnatomy book?
ReplyDeleteAlso, let us know how you like CHOP, I didn't have success with their allergy department, and after having heard the same from others, have moved all our specialists to random-various-hospitals-that-are-in-the-surrounding-states. *sigh*
Have you tried talking him through a standing poo? You clearly know when he's about to poo, so maybe try talking to him while he's poo-ing and see if he can verbalize what he's feeling/doing. If he can recognize it in the exact moment, he might understand a bit better what he's supposed to be doing...Or you could help him stand over the toilet bowl....
ReplyDeleteOur GI doctor told my daughter to lean forward and rest her elbows on her knees and relax. Apparently that relaxes some of those muscles automatically. Good luck!
ReplyDeleteWhen I trained my daughter, I used brown play dough and one of these squeeze tools that squeeze one stream/roll of play dough. I would squirt it into a play potty we had for her dolls. I would do it when she gave cues that she was pooping. She loved pooping standing up while looking out the window. When i noticed she pooped, I would squeeze it into the potty. It took a while for her to make the connection with what her body was doing and the potty part, but it eventually worked. Not sure if it will help you, but it's worth a shot.
ReplyDeleteMaybe forgo the whole 'muscles' business, and explain that the poop is a train and the 'system' its track, and it has to ride on out. Little Dude's job (yes, J.O.B) in all of this is to sit and let the train fall into the depot. Nemo might help here, since they get flushed and end up in the ocean - eventually. You could pull this together in several different ways.
ReplyDeleteI sure hope this helps. I know it is beyond frustrating - the diff between your situation and one that I had was that he WANTS to do this - mine could have cared less. I see that as a GIANT leap in the right direction.
Good luck - and albeit gross, you have to keep us updated.
The best potty training advice I ever got was. Take the child in with you every time you go so they see it a gazillion times. Maybe it's time for Daddy to take over the "Show N' Tell" while you get 8 M&M's every time you let him. Best decision I ever made was assigning potty training to DH. Ahhh the freedom!!
ReplyDeleteThis might be gross too, but catch him when he is pooping standing up. Ask him if he is the one letting the poop go or if he is the one letting the poop go... or if it "just comes out"
ReplyDeleteIf he is the one letting it go ask him to concentrate on how he does it when standing and try the same thing squatting... When he can do the squatting he should be able to do it sitting...
Good luck with the project... I hope this helps
I wish I knew. Literally. Because my little one has the exact same problem. :S
ReplyDeleteIs it perhaps impatience? We couldn't get the toddler to poop in the potty... even bribery wasn't working. So I finally, by total accident discovered that he didn't like having to sit there so long. That he didn't understand why he had to sit & wait. So it turned out to be a patience issue (even waiting 1 minute was horrible in his eyes). Perhaps that is part of your little man's issue?
ReplyDeleteMy son did that (pooped standing up) till he was five, and then he figured it out. Not sure how.
ReplyDeleteWe made the standing-up-and-pooping place in the bathroom, next to the toilet, to reinforce the idea that this is the place where pooping happens. But as for how the method finally clicked? I honestly don't know. I remember I had a hard time explaining. Rewards meant zero to him, in terms of helping him to know exactly what to do.
A stool to put his feet on (instead of letting them dangle) while he sat was (and still is) important. Also a potty seat, so he didn't have to concentrate on balancing AND pooping at the same time.
I've since read that the age-old human way of pooping is squatting, not sitting, and that our modern way of sitting to do our biz is not natural or good for our gut. Or something. Anyway, gross as it is, maybe squatting over one of those toddler potties would feel more natural for him, since squatting is kind of like standing. (More like standing than sitting is, anyway.) Take the pants and diaper totally off, squat over the bucket, drop it in. After that becomes routine, try actually sitting on the bucket to do it. And then when sitting on the little bucket becomes routine, move the sitting idea to the toilet.
Maybe! Good luck. :)
This may be totally off, and gross too, but what about an anal thermometer to make him aware of those muscles? Don't know how to do that in a sitting position though. A gloved finger w/some vaseline or KY jelly on it? I'm just thinking that it's an exit only & something pushed up there would totally make him use those muscles to push it out. you could reach around & under while he is sitting on the toilet. You are his mother & you do what you have to for your kids.
ReplyDeleteI also have a stand up pooper. She has gone on the potty but needs a small stool in front for her feet to get a little leverage. I guess the muscles work differently between sitting & standing.
Good Luck, I know it's frustrating.
in many cultures around the world pooping is done in squat position (much closer to the standing your dude prefers). In India there are porcelain toilets over holes in the ground. I read someplace that the squatting is much more in tune to the natural positioning of our bodies for that, um, task. my little one prefers his own "froggy potty" for this job, i think because he sits in a more squat position (he'll sit on the big toilet to pee, or stand to pee).
ReplyDeleteperhaps try a way of letting him squat to poo at least to get started and work into a big potty? i know that a froggy at school isn't really feasible, but it could be a starting point?
For Bug, it took me forever to figure out, it was a sensory thing. First off, the cold potty, that never helps in the relax department. And we all know, no matter how warm it is, the potty is 20 degrees colder! lol
ReplyDeleteThen, there was the audience. She would tell me to stay in the bathroom with her (I don't know if there was some other fear or sensory thing going on there or not), but then she got stage freight. Is there differnt lighting in bathroom than there is in the rest of the house? What I mean is, is there like really bright vanity lighting, or a "normal" overhead light? That could play a part too. I hope some of this helps!
I think mot par mot's post is a really great idea in breaking down the steps and transitioning him with location of pooping. We had to have a 6 week stomach bug to remotely get close to potty training, and since my child liked being clean, I told him he could stay clean if he used the potty. I found probiotics to help with his sensory aspect of potty training (all my children are very delayed with potty training, so I'm still in many ways the same boat as you), but then other probiotics and antibiotics have also made him regress. Right now, he's on Culturelle and Saccaramyces Boulardii. We can't seem to change them or get off of them. I changed his iron supplement 2 weeks ago, and we had regression again, so there is definitely a correlation there with us.
ReplyDeleteI find the sensory & motor planning issues with potty training REALLY difficult to overcome. Hence, our huge budget of diapers. They say your kids will not always stay in them, but I'm starting to think maybe mine will. Or else I'm going to have to pay someone else to train all of my children. So now maybe I'm thinking I'm not the best person to give advice. ;)
What about just getting him to contract and relax the muscles when he does not have the urge to poo? You could actually watch with a mirror to see if he is actually contracting and relaxing.
ReplyDeleteI have an 8 year old who has a cyst on his brain. He had/has pretty major issues with pooping related to motor planning and sensory integration issues. We had to do a full on bowel clean out recently because we found out from the pediatrician that part of his problem was chronic constipation that interfered with bowel tone and how signals were getting to his brain--he always felt full so he stopped having the urge to go. We did two weeks of hellish daily doses of bowel Draino, and now he is on a daily routine of Benefiber in his chocolate milk in the morning and a dose of mineral oil stool softener after school. If we don't do that to keep things running smoothly, he starts to have regression and accidents.
ReplyDeleteMy three year old doesn't get it. He would rather poop his pants playing wherever he is than sit on the toilet. I have him on the fiber and softeners too, to make it easier for him to push it out. I have also been known to let him play Angry Birds on our tablet while sitting just to get him to spend more time on the potty.
I am SO. OVER. potty training.
My heart goes out to you.
I was thinking the same thing as Anonymous...for purposes of demonstrating the feeling of the muscles used in the process, a thermometer might work. I also like the suggestion about comparing the process to getting a train to its depot! Good luck, SRMM!
ReplyDeleteI have a six year old with down's syndrome, so I feel your pain. Six+ years of diapers is enou to drive any mommy insane. Some tricks I use are having he stay on the potty for a longer time than usual. Sometimes sitting with her in the bathroom and reading books or singing songs. The iPad is a favorite pastime while she sits on the potty. There is an app for that. Sometimes I make a pushing grunting face and say, "let's puuuuush the poopie out.". That seems to trigger an automatic response to push even if they don't want to. We are still working on it, so my advice may not be the best.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that he knows what needs to happen and how it happens, but gets stage fright on the toilet? Maybe take a trick from childbirth and have him make "horselips" while sitting. Keeping your jaw and lips relaxed keeps your pelvic muscles relaxed. It's also silly enough to take some stress out of the situation.
ReplyDeleteAs previous posters have suggested, I would have him stand over a toddler potty (or even just the removable basin that is under the seat). As he gets used to the idea, you can "catch" him and help him move into more of a sitting/squatting position and then (hopefully/eventually) go with the stool to rest his feet on at the big potty. Also, maybe do some sitting/squatting exercises when it is not potty time so he has a frame of reference for when it is time to sit.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, I feel your ya girl. I had the same problems with my little girl. She's 8 now, but she wasn't potty trained until she was 4. She could pee at home, but no where else, so she would hold her pee to the point of getting UTI's. And poop? Forget it. She would stand with her legs crossed, CRYING for a diaper to poop in. Of course, not being sadistic evil parents, we would give in. Eventually, it just clicked. I can't claim any tricks or magic parenting skills. I really DO NOT suggest sticking anything in your kid's butt hole. One, that just seems gross (sorry but it is) and two, there is just too much going on in that department that you could screw up. We're mommys, not doctors, and some how, I can see it messing him up more, rather than helping...
ReplyDeleteMy son had similar problems. Instead of concentrating on pooping we worked on farting first. Farting standing and sitting down,etc (games, pull my finger etc). Then one of the days when I knew he really had to poop I had him sit on the potty and fart. The poop came out and he has been pooping on the potty since.
ReplyDeleteWe've had problems with my daughter (almost 5) regressing to holding it in from time to time, and what has really helped her was a stepstool to rest her feet on while she's on the toilet. It gave her a little more traction to push more easily, and I can see that being important with sensory issues, too (my PDD-NOS/ADHD boy used one of those crazy Stokke chairs at the dinner table for a few years to help ground his feet instead of squirming everywhere). Good luck!
ReplyDeletehmmm I have potty trained 2 boys and 1 girl. I had a potty with all the bells and whistles for my daughter and she did not use it at all. I took her to the store and asked her to pick her new potty. She picked an elmo toilet seat and that was it. No potty straight toilet seat and a step stool. She watched me do the do, investigated the process and the contents. When it was her turn she did it. She was even more thrilled to get a 3 stickers on her arms and forehead. Oh yeah the skittles was for me but she did get a few (4). 2 for pee and 4 for poop. Good luck. Eleanor
ReplyDeleteI have a nearly 12 year old severely autistic son. He was potty trained around 7 years old (and probably could have been a bit sooner, but we waited...) My suggestion would be to try and recognize the pre-poop signals he's giving. After that you can try to encourage him to poop in his pull up in the bathroom like another reader suggested. From there maybe you could have him poop in the pull up on the potty? A therapist friend of mine said that she had read that children with autism have difficulty with bowel movements because their sensory systems do associate the stool as part of the body- therefore pooping (especially on a toilet) is like losing an appendage. It kind of made sense to me. Now, when you get past the poop phase of potty training and you have little dude able to wipe please let me know that trick- my bathroom towels will thank you! :)
ReplyDeleteYou've been at this long enough that I doubt I have anything that could help. And kids learn so differently! For my son, he uses a little potty close to the ground and sitting there for a looooong time helped with pooping. I'd bribe him with M&Ms to just sit. He'd watch tv. Eventually poop would happen. That's how he'd learn what it feels like. If Little Dude is needing to poop and then stopping once he's sitting, he maybe can feel what his body needs to do but it feels scary or wrong. If he's distracted, perhaps he could relax. I doubt I said one thing to help, but good luck with it all!
ReplyDeleteMy kids liked to read the book "Everyone Poops." It's a funny little book.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the suggestion to let him sit on the potty to poop in his pull-up.
We had potties in various rooms of the house, so we could sit in the living room and do puzzles or legos or whatever, just to get them to stay sitting for long periods.
Congrats on the progress with peeing! I hope the pooping comes along soon.
If he really won't sit but he masters pooping over the toilet while standing, that could be a good thing. Public toilets are pretty gross...
Does he get OT? For some reason, I'm thinking that this is something that OTs can deal with, in particular if it's a sensory/motor planning problem. I agree that it's definitely something to which you should try to find a fast solution, while he is so willing to learn.
ReplyDeleteWe're not even close to the potty training stage, yet. My little guy still doesn't realize it when he needs to go, much less if he's gone to the bathroom, so he'd sit in a dirty diaper all day if we weren't constantly checking him. We've tried just sitting him on a potty seat or the big potty, but he hates it. I'm guessing we're still a couple of years off on this front.
Wish I had some good advice! Good luck!
Oh! Oh! Oh! I can help with this one thanks to the dr I just took my boy to. Try the Vasalva method. Have him sit on the potty and blow up a balloon or blow on his thumb or just try to blow your hand away. He has to blow hard. It forces his body to let go of the external sphincter & also uses his stomach muscles to press down at the same time. Try it! Let me know if it works for you. I hope it does.
ReplyDeleteLet me know what you find out. Ian is pee trained but requires the pull up for poo. I am at the point where I think he is possibly fearful of pooping. Ugh. And he is going to be nine in two months. So much fun.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds a bit like he's frustrated so he's tensing up.. like another mom said, maybe just lean his elbows on his knees and relax a bit.. or maybe taking a book/magazine/etc would distract him enough to relax.. at least for a while?
ReplyDeleteInteresting. We don't poop with our thinking brains - I'm not sure a logical, step-by-step explanation is going to help. You need to find a way to let his body relax and do its thing while he's on the potty. (It's like birth - you don't birth with your analytical brain - you move gradually but completely into the "animal" brain when birthing. That's why learning all of the 1-2-3 steps in a class doesn't really prepare you.) Have you thought of guided imagery? Hypnosis? Seriously.
ReplyDeleteI'm wanting to potty train my 4yo. We got peeing down. Pooping - notsomuch. My oldest 3 learned by squatting on the toilet, as in pants, shoes, underwear off and standing on the toilet. My 4yo did make improvements when we put him in underwear anyway (he was actually aware that he just pooped - that does NOT happen with the diapers!), but we took a break when he started flushing his underwear down the toilet. Um, they would get caught in the iron pipes under the house. $250 later, it was time for a break! Haha. Anyhow, be sure to post if you find something that works for you. Obviously a lot of us struggle with the same problem!
ReplyDeleteSomeone else said this, but I would totally try to get him to squat while pooping, instead of standing straight up, then move to hovering over the chair and so on.
ReplyDeleteCan he put both feet firmly on the floor when on the toilet? Try pooping with your feet not on the ground. Nearly impossible - not sure how any little kid does it. Anyway - I suggest gradually moving from standing to sitting and make sure he can brace against the floor.
My 6 year old is on the spectrum, and has been potty trained since shortly after his 4th birthday. Peeing standing up was pretty easy, but pooping was a problem - until he solved it himself. He would completely strip naked from the waist down, lift the seat on the toilet, then squat on the toilet bowl, using his hands and feet to steady himself. So he would literally be standing on it, feet spread apart, with his hands between his feet, helping him keep his balance and not fall in. It reminded me of living in Japan when I was in college and figuring out how to use the "squatty potty." This worked, and as strange as it was to have to literally re-dress him after each bowel movement, it was far better than the alternative. He has since figured it out and just sits, but he still won't use the toilet seat and will just sit on the rim of the bowl. I just try and keep the toilet as clean as possible and then always make sure that he's washing his hands. Best of luck!
ReplyDeleteI had the EXACT SAME ISSUE with my son (just about to turn 4 at the time). I said NONONONO to everyone including my pediatrician who suggested laxatives because he was not constipated. He could poop just fine in his pull up, standing up, but insisted he could not poop sitting down (sound familiar?). I took him to a pediatric gastrontereologist who proclaims himself to be a potty training expert and he isn't - he's a freaking GOD. Lo and behold, what did he suggest but laxatives - and not a little, as my ped said - a LOT. So much there was NO WAY my son could avoid pooping when I put him on the potty. I had to spend literally 2 days in or right outside the bathroom with him but it worked!!! Within 3 days he was FULLY trained for poop and NEVER HAD ONE ACCIDENT. It took 6 months to wean him down off the Ex-Lax but no ill effects, no lasting trauma (for him)...a miracle!! If you were in NY I would tell you to see this dr...good luck!!! (PS - while my son is NT, the dr works mainly with spectrum and Down Syndrome kids and has a 99% success rate - he said his only "failures" are kids who are too cognitively low functioning to get it even once their bodies understand.)
ReplyDeleteAs a former gymnastics coach, I had to come up with all different ways to get kids to activate muscle groups (there were teenagers who came in--potty trained--but unable to consciously isolate muscles). Usually my biggest success, especially with the younger ones, for abdominals was to have them clench their teeth and make a really aggressive GRRR bear noise. It often helped them to be able to consciously recreate the feeling if they put their hand on their stomach so they could feel the muscle activation.
ReplyDeleteI'm now a massage therapist and my other "tricks" for getting things to move is 1) pressing the left knee upward (pushes on the descending colon and helps move things out) and 2) clockwise (when facing your child) circular massage on the lower abdomen. This tends to be more of a constipation trick, but perhaps if you could somehow blend it with being a bear it would help to bring the natural ability into the realm of a conscious, chosen ability.
Also the squat idea mentioned is great because of the natural compression on the colon. As the mom of a kid (who isn't on the spectrum) who wore regular underpants but came to us and requested a diaper when it was time to poop *for a year*, my heart goes out to you.
I wish you all the best. Explaining anything to my son with autism, you have to use sound effects. When I was potty training him I would tell him, you need to poop...like this (insert grunting and scrunched up face). It causes the abs to contract. Also, he cannot poop without pants and underwear completely off. He needs to be able to spread his legs wide to do it.
ReplyDeleteElevating his feet with a stool (no pun intended) may help. It tends to relax the area that needs to be relaxed for the poop to come out. It may just be a matter of it not feeling right. I was about to explode due to the need to pee while I was in labor, but I couldn't make my body pee into a bedpan. It just wouldn't come out while I was lying down. It went on for hours, and they finally had to go the catheter route. I reeeeeeally wanted to pee. My body would not cooperate. Maybe Little Dude has the same problem.
ReplyDeleteMy son is autistic and we had the same problem and we battled and battled and finally I told him that when he felt it coming to just go and try to sit on the potty. Also taking all clothes completely off the bottom so he was free was a big help. He finally did it on his own without the audience of me or his dad. I think he got tense with us in there even though he said he wanted us in there. Once he did it, he figured out the feeling associated with it and it was downhill from there. He was so proud of himself it was a bigger reward than anything we could give him (although he did get a whopping lego set!!)
ReplyDeleteI would try doing some anal kegels with him when he doesn't have to poop so he gets the feeling of those muscles. The really horrible prenantal yoga video that I did when I was pregnant used an elevator metaphor about taking the elevator up (clenching) and then letting it down (relaxing) and then having to go below ground (further relaxing and opening up). Might work to get him to understand how to open the muscles. You do them sitting down. It should feel like he is trying to push through the floor. Good luck!
ReplyDeleteYou may have tried this but since he likes Star Wars you could liken it to an escape pod or maybe the trip down the garbage chute in one of the episodes. Sitting, squatting or standing doesn't really matter if he can do it alone in the toilet at some point.
ReplyDeletedo you have a laptop or tablet you can load his starwars lego game on? we got our 3 year old to poop on the toilet (once) by setting him up with my tablet and just leaving him there till it happened.
ReplyDeleteFor mine, it was totally sensory! Bathrooms were awful places - it wasn't until I realized what was going on that we made any progress. It dawned on me that (as he was only 3 at the time), I had to think about what he was feeling and express it to him. - that bathrooms are hard and echoey?, cold floors, sound of water in the pipes, flushing sounds, cold hard seat. Getting him to agree with me about all the nasty, anxiety provoking things about bathrooms really helped.(Think of bathrooms as a smaller version of Walmart)
ReplyDeleteSo we agreed to a potty in the nice living room for a while, and progressed to the bathroom eventually, with towels laid across the floor to keep his feet happy, and removing all his clothes.
Even though he's 23 now - he still isn't fond of having bowel movements - at least he's been having them in an appropriate lace for 20 years!!!
Maybe distract him while he's on the toilet so he can't clench up? Hand held video game? Awesome book he loves? It works to get my kid to eat, maybe it'll help yours poop. *shrug* (It wasn't too gross of a post.)
ReplyDeleteI had similar issues with my son when he was 5. He refused to poop on the potty. He has a pretty severe language delay too, so verbal explanation was never going to work. He was in underwear but would lean on his bed and poop in his pants. After the 2nd or 3rd time, I managed to catch him in the act. I dropped him on the potty right in the middle of it, when it was too late to stop. I had to do it a few days in a row. Luckily my son was pretty regular so I need when to wait for him to disappear to go poop in his pants.
ReplyDeleteMy son didn't poop on the toilet until he was 5, either. Not sure if it was his motor planning delay, low tone, sensory processing issues or just general stubborness. He couldn't figure out how to push, either. So I would rub his stomach and tell him I would help him "push" (more to help him relax, but he thought I was helping him push it out) from the front, and he would push from his bum. We would also chant "push it out, push it out, waaaaaaaaaaay out.". (Gross, yet effective). After lots of explaining and patience, he finally figured out what muscles to use and well-ah! Poop in the toilet. Once it all comes together, we will celebrate along with you. I was ready to throw a tickertape parade for my kiddo. :)
ReplyDeleteThis may sound like a really stupid question, but have you already tried the standard potty training route? This worked for my AS son very quickly. I'm sure you know the routine. You get him up from bed in the morning, keep him naked from the waist down, give him an insane amount of juice (or any beverage he loves) so he has to pee real bad, and keep him in one room with you (with a potty nearby). When he starts to pee (on himself, on the floor), you rush him to the potty (non-punitive!), even if the pee is spraying everywhere. You continue this until noon (keep giving him juice, keep rushing him to the potty when he starts to pee on the floor or on himself), at which point you put him back in a Pull-Up and move on with your day (it's too stressful for both of you to try to do this from morning to night). Same thing again the next day and the next. Maybe try it on a three-day weekend, although it's much easier with no other children around. I assume you've already tried this, and you've obviously potty trained three girls. But boys are different and AS makes it all much harder.
ReplyDeletePooping on the potty is much more difficult to learn, so it's usually not even attempted until peeing has been mastered (either sitting on the potty or standing, whichever is easier). Again, I'm sure you know all this. But just thought I would ask. The naked-from-the-waist-down approach worked for my son rather quickly. He put two and two together eventually, got over his fear/anxiety (or whatever was going on), and got into the routine. And then we just started putting him in underwear. Occasional accident, but whatever.
I would try buying some Star Wars Legos underpants (unless he already has them) and hang them on the wall. He gets to pick a pair to have/wear once he is peeing in/on the potty every day. The poop part will follow the pee part. It's trickier, but he will get the picture better if he's already out of diapers/Pull-Ups during the day. I doubt there's any way to get a kid to poop on the potty if he hasn't mastered the peeing.
My daughter had the stand up/sit down issue, too, when she was potty training. A friend of mine told me that a natural time for kids to poop is about 20 minutes after they eat - the digestive process is working, so it makes everything come out a little easier. So we would sit on the potty about 20 minutes after lunch with some books and just hang out and relax until she pooped. 6 months later, she still poops almost everyday 20 minutes after lunch...
ReplyDeleteI'm not a mom at all, so I know my advice is worth little. But I am a speech therapist so I know a little bit about the spectrum... (And thank you so much for your honest perspective and sharing your trials and triumphs!)
ReplyDeleteIn any case, you use the same muscles to pick up something heavy as you do to push out poop, so that might be a good place to start w/awareness of the muscles and tone stuff. (You have to hold your breath to keep the abs tight, lungs expanded and diaphragm in the right place to lift or push). Plus, if Little Dude is squatting to pick up something heavy, he'll be in the "natural" pooping position (as mentioned by many other people).
A few things to try.... Put his feet on a high-ish stool -- his knees should be a bit higher than his waist when his feet are flat on the stool. If he's anything like my girls, farts are funny. Tell him to let out a big fart while he's sitting on the potty.
ReplyDeleteHope these tips help --- Good Luck!
If squatting on the potty is too difficult (I'm thinking I would fall over if I tried that!) I worked with a little girl on the spectrum who always pulled her feet up onto the toilet seat when she needed to poop (as she got to be super duper tall, I think she ended up just putting one leg up, it's been a little while so I'm struggling to remember exactly). I can't remember if she put the soles of her feet down (so her knees were up) or if her soles were together (so her knees were out, like she was stretching) but either one might be something to try if balancing on the toilet is too difficult!
ReplyDeleteSometimes giving them a stool to put their feet on and then push down with their feet onto the stool helps. Or I have held my boys hands and told them to squeeze my hands and squeeze their tummys to make poop come out. That seemed to work for them. Is his poop hard? Because eventually if the poop is soft it is going to slide out on its own easily without him doing much. Try a lot of fiber. My boys are mostly vegetarians and eat a lot of whole grains and it helps. Also try giving him privacy. Mine pull the shower curtain around them so I am nearby but I can't see their poop face. They like that.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I can say is to echo what others have suggested and that is to make sure his feet are grounded for the pushing!
ReplyDeleteFor a long tim we had to stop flushing when he was in the room. Then he had to watch our poop disappear many times and know we were not hurt. Age 5 he was peepee trained.
ReplyDeleteI finally realized - what if I have to clean up the floor a couple times? Anything is worth it to get over the hurdle.
So we took away his clothes. The moment of truth finally came. He sat on the toilet screaming "I need my diaper I need my diaper PLEEEAASE I need...........Oops! Too late!"
More beautiful words were never spoken.
My sensory system says that lifting something heavy, practicing fart comedy, practicing with glycerin suppositories - any of these with no clothes when he needs to go might get over the hurdle. Plus farting on demand will make him popular with the boys.
My Aspie brain says muscle talk sounds like blahblahblahblah. We love to monologue but we can't sort that many words.
You've probably already tried all these, but here goes. First make sure he has a stool for his feet to rest on (don't want dangling feet when your trying to poop). Have him lean his body forward and put his elbows on his knees. This helped my son. Does little Dude like books or is there something he could do that would entertain him so that he wouldn't think so much about trying to poop? Our urologist suggested that we give my son a book to read so that he didn't think about how long he was sitting on the potty or about what he was doing and it worked for him. Of course, this is 12 years later and he has a harder time pooping if he doesn't have something to read, but hey, isn't that what magazines are for? LOL My son wanted me in the bathroom with me, but didn't want me to see him poop. So I would stand at the door with my back to him. Don't know if little Dude has that issue or not. Last, but not least, does little Dude go to the bathroom on a schedule? This also helped my son. We went every 2 hours. When he first got up at 6, then 8, 10, 12, 2, 4, 6, and 8 right before he went to bed. I don't know how to explain the process any better than you did. Hope he has success soon.
ReplyDeleteI don't have anything to add to this conversation, as my child is way past the potty training stage (in fact, she's getting married next year), however, I couldn't wait to read the comments to see what everyone suggested. I knew your regular audience would come through with great ideas. As to reading on the toilet, I still do that, almost to the point that I can't poop without having reading material in my hands. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with your quest. There are some good possibilities here and you can verify them with the Doc when you see him/her just to be sure there's no immediate downside (like the object in the anus - might work, but sounds a little iffy). You are a great mom - and I can't tell you that enough times.
~physicsmom
I don't have time to read all the comments, but we used Maria Wheeler's technique with our son. Basically, we just did schedule training and let his body figure it out. We didn't worry about him initiating anything until he got around to it.
ReplyDeleteI wrote about it here: http://trishdoerrler.com/2009/11/potty-training-your-special-needs-child/. It's the second half of the article where I talk about what worked for us.
Good luck!!
My Asperger's son is very stong-willed and we tried everything to get him to poop on the potty. Nothing worked until I bought the shiniest remote control car, put it on a high shelf in the bathroom where he could see it and told him if he wanted to play with it he had to go on the pot. He did it, got play time with the car and then it would go back on the shelf until next time. I think his issue was about fear and wanting to control the situation. Had to distract him from the fear and take back the control. Bed-wetting stopped when he announced close to his b-day that when he turned 7 he wouldn't need pull-ups anymore! And by God he didn't. Little stinker! Good luck to you!
ReplyDeleteMy amazing husband sat with our son for hours on end in the bathroom blowing bubbles, singing songs, reading stories because he was determined not to send him to regular school in pull-ups. It took a while, but he reached his goal (with only a couple of days to spare). I am so proud of them both. Our son also had a fear of falling in, so we had to get nice sturdy and comfortable potty seats for him.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if he thinks it's something he is supposed to be able to do at will, like sit and make it come out any ol' time. Maybe he thinks everyone does that. Does he understand the urge to pee is similar to urge to BM? But it's even harder because even if you don't feel you have to pee, if you try something will usually always come out. But if he already understands that part, then maybe it's that he doesn't feel the urge, therefore could be a sensory thing.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise--put it in Lego terms, make it part of routine, give him billions of specific examples in the hopes of creating a general concept, etc.
My 4yo finally did it, before even ever peeing in the potty (!), just before her 4th birthday. It was on a big time bribe. And she sat and sat on the potty, crying, for 30 mins. I told her she can try later but she insisted to sit until she did it in order to get the reward. It was a combo of finally wanting to, and being able to feel it. Prior to this she wasn't able to feel the urge. So, with us it was a matter of all the factors lining up just right.
You are totally living my life. I was up at M's school the other day because they had to call in back-up (me) to help clean up yet another accident. She really wants to get it too - it's like there's some big disconnect between wants she wants and what her body wants. And I know that there's a HEAP of anxiety rolled into all of this, but it doesn't make it any easier. I was really embarrassed for her when some other girls came in the bathroom and Morgan's mommy is helping her change her pants.
ReplyDeleteOne of my friends suggested giving my own little guy water to drink around the time he usually has to poop. It seems to work - once he drinks enough, it's like it almost falls out on its own once he gets to the potty. Sometimes I let him take his cup in there so he can drink ON the potty, and that helps too. Maybe if you focus more on "letting the poop out" than pushing it out, he will relax enough and it will just happen.
ReplyDeleteIf you go for the standing/squatting over the toilet route (which I highly suggest) you could put up the handicap rails for more stability. They have the kind that attach to the toilet, not the wall, at medical supply stores. And then you could decorate them like something from Star Wars!
ReplyDeleteAlso, making it fun outside of the bathroom will ease any anxiety he may be feeling. My daughters both loved this goofy CD, which we always played in the car: http://www.amazon.com/Tinkle-Little-Tot-Rhymes-Training/dp/0689046464 Once they loved the songs, it was easy to sing them as we actually went potty. The favorites here were
"The Tushy Pushy" to the tune of Hokey Pokey
You pull your undies down
You take the potty out
You sit your bottom down
And you push the poopy out
You do the tushy pushy
Till the poop is in the pot
That's what it's all about.
And to The Itsy Bitsy Spider tune:
An itsy-bitsy poo-poo
Was floating in the bowl
I wiped my bum with paper
and flushed it down the hole
I washed my hands with soap
Then I walked right out the door
And I'll return again
When I have to poop some more.
I've been thinking maybe you could ask him to imagine himself as a tube of toothpaste from the chest down. First you have to 'unscrew the cap' and relax, then squeeze from the top end by his chest downwards in sections, first the muscles in the chest, then his tummy and so on, while leaning forwards with his feet on something, maybe?
ReplyDeleteA lot of hypnotherapy and other things use this sort of contracting and relaxing muscles from the head down or feet up as a way to relax, and it really makes you feel relaxed! Perhaps if you do some things like that, first scrunching up and tensing the muscles in his face for four seconds, then relaxing, then neck, shoulders, arms, hands, chest, tummy, bottom, thighs, calves, and feet as a sort of winding down thing, maybe before you start the bedtime routine, might help? That way it'd be familiar and might help everyone feel comfortable and relaxed.
I don't know if you've heard this before but it's the only thing that will get me to sleep when I'm worrying! Just a few ideas, I don't know if they'll be helpful, but I hope they are. I hope everything works out soon, and good luck!
Hmmm, it's a toughie, that's for sure. I've potty trained two boys, completely different ways. I had a hell of a time with the first one, the second I just let him walk around naked all day. Now, I know that's not possible with Little Dude, so maybe this will help. Have you ever timed his "going" times? I know it sounds weird, but watch him for a few days, see what time it is, if he goes at the same time every day, and after a few days, try to put him on the potty around that time. Might be handy to have a psp, gameboy, or some other handheld game to make him feel better about having to sit down for a bit.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I always explained to my kids the whole digestive system, very age-appropriate, about how when he eats, the food passes through, your body takes whatever it needs, and throws out the rest, because it's all garbage at that point. He needs to let go of the garbage in the right place, because it doesn't belong near his bum.
I'd like to mention that neither of my kids are special needs (short of ADHD (suspected) in my 5 year old), and I think you're awesome for everything you do. Having said that, my advice is given with a good heart, as I have no experience. Hugz!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a 6 year old son with autism who has also struggled with the potty, mostly with poop. He doesn't like water splashing his skin and he hates the noise of the toilet flushing. He has learned to cover his ears when he flushes anywhere with a lot of echo. He's also learned to tolerate water splashing him if it is predictable.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was teaching him to use the toilet for poo, I made a little sign and posted it in every washroom. It was called, "The poo poo routine". I just broke it down, step by step and posted it in every washroom in my house. It took some time and some reminding to look at the "Poo poo Routine" but he got it. Everyone thought I was insane but it worked for us. I don't know if that would help Little Dude but I hope you find an answer that does.
Both of my children have had encopresis/enuresis. Which means I've been working on getting them to go on the toilet for the last 10 years. So, you know, you might want to disregard everything I say since I don't seem to be that successful. I didn't have time to read all the comments since I need to take DS to the pediatrician where I will be spending an insane amount of money just to tell her that no, DS is still not pooping every morning despite drinking almond milk, eating probiotic yogurt, taking Senekot before bed, eating fiber tablets daily and doing sit times. At that point, she will probably send us to a pediatric gastro who will have us try the same old things but charge more to tell me that.
ReplyDeleteFor the muscles, I've read and it does seem to work that having them either actually blow up a balloon or pretend to blow up a balloon will have similar muscle movements. DS wasn't sure how to do that so instead I would have him lean forward with elbows on knees like someone else suggested and try to blow on my bangs until they moved.
Can he fart sitting down? If so, why not just encourage him to sit on the toilet and let a couple of firecrackers go? He may find that he has more success if he's not focused on pooping and toots are hilarious so... Focusing on releasing gas instead of pooping might prevent the seizing that's happening when he sits on the toilet.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a something I've tried but when you really do have to poo, sometimes a fart isn't just a fart. You know?
Good luck to both of you! Toilet training my daughter (who has ASD) was the least fun thing I've done as a parent (and that includes the emergency c-section and the 30 hour labour preceeding it - where a fart was never just a fart)
Sorry, I got carried away with the gross theme going on here.
My third born--SPD, and now an ASD diagnosis (which I already knew)--was a late potty trainer. We just celebrated his 6th bday this month and his being potty-trained 4 months ago. My second is SPD (minor issues that relate to some relatively coolness, if also annoying at times). He, too, had some potty-training issues, although he was two when trained.
ReplyDeleteI have no good hints. None. Nothing I tried worked. Not bribery. Not charts. Not teaching a doll. Not taking away pull-ups and training underwear. And not any of the other 1001 ideas out there. Both just miraculously happened one day. There were little signs, like what you're having shortly before it was done.
What I do know is that both those two kids, squat over the toilet. It's gross. It's a mess. But their feet go on the seat and they push themselves up against the back. They do NOT sit. They can not poop when sitting. CAN not, not WILL not. I know that in my core.
It's something to have him try. You might have to clean the toilet every time afterwards, but it's a small price to pay to go out in public without fear. Meaning, school.
It sounds like Little Dude needs to understand which muscles to use.
ReplyDeleteI'd try a few things which may help but are gross.
1. Get some marbles that you are ok with throwing out. Have little dude stand and put one marble between his butt cheeks. Not far in there, just where it is on the precipice of faint out. Tell him to try to keep the marble from falling, when he figures out the butt muscle thing, tell him to let the marble fall.
Then show him how much harder it is to keep the marble from falling while sitting. Help him link the idea of the marble to poop.
2. For deeper muscles Aka sphincter muscles...get some gloves and child suppositories (glycerin). Explain what is going to happen- you are going to put the suppository in his bottom so that he knows which muscles to use. Also explain that the suppository feels funny but is going to help.
Insert the suppository and have him try to hold on to it. Ask him if he can tell there is something different about how his bottom feels. If he can, ask him to try to push it out (it will melt quickly so don't force him to strain). Or just wait. Tell him he will feel a feeling that is his body telling him he needs to poop. He should have a nice poop pretty soon.
If little dude prefers to stand, have him try squatting on the toilet seat (sounds weird, but was what finally worked with my 5 1/2 yo ASD son). Our son has never been able to tell when he has to poo, so we do timed toileting. Now he poops every day after breakfast and after dinner, and the rigid schedule seems to work for him.
ReplyDeleteWow you have gotten a lot of clever ideas so far. I didn't read through them all, though, so forgive me if I repeat. My daughter is so visual that I draw pictures of lots of things. Often times they are sort of flow-chart like. Or I will draw a set of steps. Perhaps that might help. Also, and this might sound odd, but my daughter used to poop Every. SIngle. Time we were at the train table in A store. Once an employee told me that it happens to lots of kids because they are so hyper focused. So I wonder if a small potty to facilitate a squatting position and a round of angry birds or whatever to help him focus on anything but pooping might help.
ReplyDeleteGood luck to both of you. Oh and if it were me I would offer m&ms just for being a good sport about trying. If he wants to do it but can't, bribes might just seem unobtainable and frustrating.
I wish I could help, but alas, I am a total failure at potty training. Still, as I read this it makes me wonder if this is what my son's problem was. It took him until he was 7 to quit having poop accidents. There was a combination of constipation and some sensory issues in play with him. But I wonder if an explanation on my part would have helped him. Good luck! I feel your pain.
ReplyDeleteOk, you don't know me from eve but I had to comment on this. One thing to make sure of is that he has a stool (snicker) where both of his feet can reach while sitting on the potty AND his knees are at a 45 degree angle or close to it. You need leverage to poo, imagine pooing when your feet were dangling...not so much. haha Wait until you know he has to go (like you said) and have him repeatedly blow out a candle or pinwheel or something like that. The blowing helps use the same muscles without him even knowing. The blowing thing is just a trick that doesn't always work BUT the stool is a proven need when pooping. ;)
ReplyDeleteHave just overcome EXACT same problem with nearly 4yo girl (ok, ok,nearily exact!?). We used a little seat over the toilet that had a step, handles and a kid sized seat. She was also willing, albeit a little scared cos the only success we'd had, months previously, had hurt. We used to spend lots of time in there, knees on step, elbows on knees, reading to her at 'poo time' (she was fairly regular). In the end it just happened one night. It was definitely a 'softer'stool, so I gave her heaps of pear and dried apricots for a few days so we had many successes. Now, if it's particularly hard stool, she will use the handles to half stand up and
ReplyDeletethen quickly sit when she feels it coming...sometimes she will do the stand/sit
thing a few times before we have success. Sometimes as she stand/sits, little dace red with straining she'll say 'mummy, neeed more apricots' :)! Good luck!!!!!! Honestly, I think they just figure it out eventually...
I think this is a "boy thing". Both of my boys had a hard time pooping on the potty, after driving myself crazy with my oldest, I figured out that it was easier to just let him poop in a pull-up and let him figure out the toilet thing later. (he'd cry so hard and the doc said sitting on the pot too long could cause hemorrhoids!) And about a month after I gave in on the pull-ups, that lil turkey started going in the bathroom on his own and just yelled for me to come wipe his butt! =) My youngest, he was about the same, but I didn't bother trying to make him go on the potty. He peed on the potty right before he was 3, we told him he could poop there, he looked horrified. So we just let him be and changed the pull-up when he pooped, and a few months later, he walked into the kitchen and said "I put a poop in the potty what do I do?", alrighty, that was way less painful than we expected!
ReplyDeleteThe stool for his feet is crucial, I think. The dangling feet keep him from completely relaxing. This was a major help with both of my kids. The stool should be high enough that their knees are level with or a little bit higher than the seat. -- feet flat on the stool.
ReplyDeleteI told my daughter that when she pooped on the potty, she could have whatever she wanted. She wanted me to wear a dress and high heels for dinner! I did it.
most people go at about a normal time. try to figure out his normal time. I know my X-man has a lot of problem with constipation so he gets a little benifiber in his drink in the afternoon when he gets home from school. About half an hour later, it's action time. Now, then you've got the time down, set him on the potty with a game boy, book he loves, something that will help him relax. I personally can't stand the idea of doing things while doing business, but it seems to help the kids. Thank goodness for the makers of Lysol!
ReplyDeleteAgreeing with some others here, that squatting over a potty chair/bucket/newspaper is less intimidating than sitting on the porcelain poop-sucking throne.
ReplyDeleteI guess I have to post as Anonymous since I can't get blogger to let me log in as myself or AIM or .. ARGH.
ReplyDeleteI didn't have time to read all the comments (definitely seems this is an emotional issue so many of us feel strongly about), so I apologize if I am duplicating... but I felt what I have to offer is really important and I didn't see anything like it in the 30 or so comments I did have time to read.
I was doing all the things you were doing: explanations, bribery, even songs. We (ok, he) sat there for such long stretches, singing and reading and explaining and bribing, that his little bottom had like a semi-permanent pot-shaped dent. But my husband one day says to me, "You know, there's no way I could go with all of what you've got going on in there. Maybe you should just leave him alone and give him some privacy."
and I was all thinking to myself, in my extremely frustrated fatigued and borderline suicidal state, "oh yeah mr-got-all-the-answers, like that's going to work!! You just don't want to get down in the trenches like those of us down here in the TRENCHES! Oh sure I'll give it a try and then YOU'RE going to be the one to clean up whatever gets all over the floor or suction cup him out of the toilet when he falls in!!"
So I left the Angel Boy in there and just told him that "most people like some privacy when they are pooping, so maybe you will, too", handed him a book and sort of stomped off to go make a dartboard out of my husband's picture.
and dang if it didn't work like a charm. Angel Boy literally figured out over the next 3-5 days what we had been trying to make happen for probably 18 months.
I love(hate) my husband! <3
(PS - whether this tip works for you or not, let me please encourage you to a) don't commit suicide and b) completely tune out everyone who is giving you a vibe that if you were doing something right this wouldn't be a problem. My worst mommy-tantrum ever came from letting those people's digs tunnel in and eat a part of my brain.)
There are so many tips I didn't have time to read them all, so I apologize if this is redundant.
ReplyDeleteI was about to give up on Bear starting preschool this fall because we couldn't get him potty trained (we still haven't secured the district special needs placement and traditional was our only choice).
The comments that mention squatting is much closer to the way our bodies are designed are right on the money - I've read articles that the newer, taller style of toilet design is actually causing BM challenges for tons of people. (I'm quite short and can attest that sitting on one of those tall handicap stall numbers makes it impossible for me.) Kids are at a natural height disadvantage on even the most standard toilet.
What we just discovered is that Bear was able to start pooping on the potty when we put his step stool backwards right in front of it (so the taller step is nearly level with the seat). He rests his feet on it and it approximates a squatting position. I think it also makes him feel more secure when he's seated up high (vestibular issues).
Ever since this (very recent) discovery, he hasn't had a single poop accident and reliably volunteers when he needs to go. Honestly, after all the endless potty struggles I kind of still can't believe it.
THANK YOU!!! This is so incredibly helpful. I have a 5 year old on the spectrum. He's been peeing on the potty for a year, but will only poop in a pull up standing up. We've tried everything we could think of, but there are some great ideas posted here. I can't wait to try them. I'm at the point where I'd give just about anything to get him to poop on the potty! So done with pull ups.
ReplyDelete